Transcript

Al
Welcome everybody to Radio Free Tenacity, the Voice of Worker Safety. Today we're going to do a little something different for this episode. Recently, Ergodyne Product Director Nate Bohmbach sat down with OH & S magazine and hundreds of safety leaders to take questions around the topic of proper PPE fit for women in the workplace. The convo turned out to be an insightful, thought provoking conversation on, well, an incredibly important topic, so we thought we'd drop it in the feed for you.

Al
So here's that conversation. Enjoy.

David
I think we're ready to kick things off, Nate. You want to go?

Nate
Yeah. Let's give it a go.

David
All right. Great. So the first thing I want to talk about is really why women's PPE remains a safety issue. Nate you know, PPE, as you know, we often talk about hierarchy of controls, etc.. And PPE is kind of described as the last line of defense. But when it doesn't fit properly, obviously it can introduce a whole host of hazards.

David
What kind of risks are we talking about when PPE doesn't fit right?

Nate
Yeah. In regardless of male or female here, when PPE doesn't fit right, I think the first risk you look at is just noncompliance. You know, if we're handed something that's not comfortable, doesn't fit right. We're more we're less likely to wear it. So that introduces the original risk back into the in the picture. But otherwise it can create other hazards themselves if you have loose fitting garments.

Nate
Garments that don't fit well. They can present catch hazards if you're working around moving parts, machinery and whatnot. And then things like fall protection, head protection, eyewear, if they don't fit right, they're not going to perform the same way if an incident does occur. If you've got a loose fitting fall protection harness, you take a fall. It might be dangerous itself.

Nate
So risks like that are introduced.

David
There you go. All right. So obviously many workplaces still rely on, you know, quote unquote unisex PPE. Why is that approach historically fallen short? And not just for, you know, people in general, but specifically women?

Nate
Yeah. Unisex is kind of a, you know, a term that covers things up. It's garments designed for men in general. Right? But they're being marketed as, as unisex, good enough for, for both men and women. But when put in the workplace, you know, women just simply notice it when they wear it, that it's not right for them.

Nate
The garments don't fit right. They don't work as well as they should when they're being active. So as mentioned above, that can lead to those added hazards that we discussed.

David
Exactly. So all right, so you're somebody who's been really, you know, at the center of, you know, looking at the design of women's PPE. From a design perspective, what makes it challenging to create properly fitting PPE while also meeting safety standards?

Nate
Yeah. And and let me just note that I, you know, I represent a team here at Ergodyne that takes a, you know, takes a look at the design for women. I'm blessed to have, you know, female members on my team in the broader Ergodyne company as a whole. So what we found together is the overarching challenge again, across is there's no human body that's exactly the same.

Nate
So when you try to identify, when you try to design safety equipment, that meant for a vast, you know, broad workforce. Male, female, lightweight, heavyweight, what have you, you try to develop safety standards being on both ends. It's hard to represent that entire, you know, broad scope of demographics. So you often rely on one head form, you know, one mannequin.

Nate
Stuff like that that you have to test with. But then you have varying degrees of body types then that form is supposed to represent. So that can be challenging. The other part of it, and we can get into it a little bit later, is more about there could be certain requirements for background material or material weight of the material, amount of the material that's required.

Nate
And if you're looking at workers that are smaller or larger or what have you, then those material restrictions really, really are difficult to manage as well.

David
So and I just kind of this isn't a question, but it's a comment. And I thought this was a good one. It's from Sarah at San Luis Obispo. And, and she says, I have some very small women and the small men's is like a dress. So I'm very happy that new women's fits are coming out. And I think that she kind of speaks for a lot of women in the workforce.

David
So talking about that, you know, when we're talking about, you know, stuff that just doesn't fit. Let's, you know, safety manager who might not be so aware of this issue. How can safety managers identify when PPE is becoming a safety problem, because it's ill fitting?

Nate
Yeah. Actually it can be easy if you know what you're looking for. I mean first off again back to “are they wearing it?” If they're not wearing their PPE it's probably a sign that it doesn't fit very well or it's not comfortable to wear. So that's one. But I think the key one and it's always I hate to say it's a fun game, but it's always a game you could play when our team visits job sites is what type of alterations are people making to their PPE?

Nate
I mean, the answer should be none, but usually workers who care about their own safety and know they have to wear the equipment, they're likely going to alter it to fit better and work better during their work day. So if you're seeing people not wearing it, if you're seeing people alter it, those are telltale signs that it's likely not fitting or doing right by them.

Nate
And then also, I would say if you're noticing kind of foreign pieces of PPE that maybe workers have procured themselves, that that can be a sign as well that, “hey, we know we need this stuff, but what I have what you've issued to me isn't working perfectly. So I'm trying to do something, trying to do it on my own”.

Nate
That's a sign that you probably need to look into it.

David
Okay. All right. Are there common signs that PPE wasn't designed with women in mind? Like is there, you know, is it like, say, shoulder fit or hip fit? You know, those sorts of things.

Nate
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think manufacturers and a lot of the female PPE advocates will suggest that, you know, look at, look at the boxy like nature of the hi-vis vest. If that vest or that garment is built a little bit more boxy, it has, you know, the squared off shoulders, the chest and weight fitting looks off. You know, generally speaking, it kind of looks boxy, at least from a garment standpoint.

Nate
That's probably a good sign. But in general, if you're looking at other things, you'll notice the fit just doesn't look right.

David
That makes sense. That makes sense. And I'll remind everybody, all you have to do is use the Ask a question console to add a question to our inbox, and we will get to it. One more. Oh, here's another one. And it says, and this is a good one. And it's the biggest issue I have is mainly with gloves.

David
They just don't fit. You know, obviously gloves are a critical PPE element. And there's tons of them, you know, for all sorts of different applications. Is there becoming a growing awareness when it comes to glove fit in particular?

Nate
Yeah, absolutely. Advancements in glove technology, particularly with coated knit gloves, have come a long way. And they continue to, they continue to drive forward. That's allowing manufacturers like us to kind of broaden the size scale a little bit. So there are smaller gloves available. There are more, you know, you can get a little bit more pinpointed on your sizing range then, you know, long ago where it's just you're super boxy, you know, loose fitting trades gloves, if you will. So that that's coming along and you don't necessarily have the the material restriction requirements you do with something like hi-vis, per se, when it comes to gloves.

Nate
It's just more about the manufacturing process and dialing that in.

David
Yeah. Well that's kind of a huge insight into how things are changing right there. With that in mind, let's talk a little bit about what properly fitting PPE actually looks like in the real world. You know, we kind of talked about it a little bit like the common signs and that sort of thing. But when we talk about PPE, you know, that fits, right.

David
You know, it's it's hitting all the marks. What does that actually mean from a safety standpoint?

Nate
That's the golden question, right? Is what is proper fit? Trying to nail that down. Each individual has their own unicorn they're chasing when it comes to the right fit of any, any garment, whether it be safety or not. So it's a challenging question. It's a very personal thing. I mean, in a general sense, it may not be the most perfect answer, but in a general sense, I think fit can be measured, measured by your ability to work a shift without adjusting that PPE.

Nate
Right? So if you're working, you know, from a personal standpoint, if you're there is a comfort level that is important. But if you're working in throughout the shift, you're constantly adjusting your PPE, you're moving it, you're pulling the garment up, you're twisting it. That's a telltale sign that it's not fitting properly. So if you can get your employer involved to dial in something that works for you, I think that barometers to kind of see if you're the less you're adjusting it throughout the workday, the better off, and that would constitute a better overall fit.

Nate
Regardless of what type of PPE you're using.

David
There you go. Here's a good question that just came in. And that is and it's kind of related to what you were just talking about. And that's whose responsibility is it to provide PPE that fits? Isn't that the employer's responsibility?

Nate
Short answer, yes. But my my answer would be everybody. Right? It's your it's the user's responsibility. It's the employer's responsibility. And coming from a manufacturer standpoint, it's our responsibility to provide things to you that fit appropriately. And I think that's a key message throughout the webinar here is that, there shouldn't be fingers pointed here at anybody.

Nate
Definitely the employer is required to outfit you properly with PPE, but it as soon as it turns into kind of a battle between the levels of the organization up through distribution, up through manufacturing, then you're not going to get anywhere with it. It really has to be a collaborative effort in getting the right stuff that works.

David
Okay, okay. Another question here is getting back to talking about what properly fitting PPE actually looks like. What are some of the most common mistakes that either manufacturers or employers make when selecting PPE for women?

Nate
When you ask that question, David, it reminds me of a quote from our friend Abby Ferry that we've used a little bit. Is this assumption that “shrinking and pinking it” is the appropriate phrase, you know, to use steal that phrase from Abby. You know, is that is the appropriate thing to do. And by all means, many times it is about having smaller sizes available for women, but oftentimes that can be that's a crutch for manufacturers to use to say, hey, I've got I've now been able to offer extra small or double extra small sizes.

Nate
And hey, I have some pink vests available to like that solves the problem. And it doesn't. It goes beyond that. So that's in a general sense, that's probably the biggest mistake that manufacturers make. And then, you know, I would say too from a manufacturer or an employer, don't assume that design tweaks are going to work. You have to actually, you know, put them into practice like we didn't we don't assume when we make a new piece of safety equipment that if we tweak something based on something, we read that it's going to work.

Nate
We want to get voice of customer involved. So as an employer, try some things out, invest in those trials to make sure things work. And listen to employees. They'll feel, they'll feel better that way. And you know what? You might find out that you're not that far away. That the answer might not necessarily just be adding extra small and double extra small sizes.

Nate
That goes beyond that.

David
That makes a ton of sense. You know, Nate, talking about your team and the work that you guys do, I'm kind of curious during product development and testing, have you guys or do you guys gain any insight when you're working with women in the workforce? In other words, you know, do they tell you things that really kind of shed some light that maybe hadn't dawned on you when it comes to product design and women's PPE?

Nate
Yeah, it's an excellent question. And it's really fresh in our minds. I mean, we started internally here. You know, I'm privileged to work at Ergodyne which is 52% female workforce here, so we listened to a lot to our own employees to start. You know, I'm honored to have three strong product professionals on my team. One of them who led the women's fit charge, which shout out to Kris on that.

Nate
And what we did is we reached out to women in the workforce, and we surveyed dozens of women, and the responses were great to evaluate when it came back. We found that there's kind of a happy medium. Women aren't in, probably steal some quotes here if I could find them from the survey, women aren't boxy, nor are they all hourglass shaped, right?

Nate
It doesn't mean that a boxy garment automatically you have to move to a very stringent hourglass shaped garment. Like that, that's not, there's a happy medium there. So we found things like that in the survey. Specifics on the sleeve length a couple of quotes are, you know, “they tend to be men's designs made to fit women instead of women's garments designed for women”.

Nate
You know, that that kind of was a banner we made when we went through some of our development. “PPE made for women is great if you're small and petite, but for the rest of us, that doesn't work”. And that gets back to the other comment that was being said. So things like that, like it doesn't necessarily mean you have to drastically change the products that you're working on, but a few tweaks here and there, it might be enough.

David
Yeah, yeah. And just instantly somebody made a comment that I thought was that I thought was kind of salient. And it's this, it's one of those kind of softer points. But I think it's a, it's a good one and it's, “when PPE fits better you feel better. And that helps with morale”. And you know, better morale means just better awareness better safety.

David
You know, I think morale contributes to safety culture in a lot of respects. And I just I liked that comment. So thanks, Marni. So all right, some more audience questions. I'm seeing an issue with cut-resistance gloves. Usually size small is still too big and tends to slide down or be loose. And I thought that that was just an interesting comment related to the earlier question that we answered about gloves.

Nate
Yeah, and quite a few, quite a number, especially in, you know, our knit dipped category. Now you can get gloves that are smaller in size and fit a little bit better. And sometimes they do over the course of time they do loosen up a little bit and you might have to you might have to replace them when that happens.

Nate
But the key is to get them dialed in with the right size to start.

David
Here's a good question. And it's and this applies to hard hats and bump caps. And I imagine other head safety gear and it's you know, “are there going to be hard hats that accommodate ponytails?” That's a that's a big one. And that also doesn't apply to just women to I mean there's, you know, there's there's yeah. Anyway I'll let you answer.

Nate
Yeah. Yeah. I mean yes, you know hard hats are we've gone on this beautiful journey with our bump cap category, which is not quite as limiting when it comes to, you know, hair types and that as hard hats are. But, you know, I take it beyond ponytails, you know, we've developed solutions for dreadlocks and other types of hair.

Nate
It's an excellent point. I'm glad the listener brought it up that this isn't just about body type, right? It's about hairstyles and facial structure and things fitting, from respirators to eyewear to head protection. And there is now that the, you know, we're in the age of technology and openness and back and forth that we are it is just it's really refreshing to be able to get the feedback from the field as quick as we can now and make adjustments to our design and, and iterate and, you know, consider all different types of styles as the workforce in different industries becomes more diverse for sure.

Nate
I don't know if I answered the question there, David. But that for head protection, yes, there there are better solutions now for different hair types, including ponytails.

David
Yeah. No, I think you did. And I think it's and again, you know, this is the interesting thing about women's PPE is really it's, it's both a very focused discussion, but at the same time it opens the door to talking about the fact that PPE just, you know, when you when you need clothing to fit properly in order to confer safety, you know, you start to really have to look beyond just small, medium, large, extra large.

David
You know, there's a whole lot more to it for everybody in the workforce. This is a great question. “I found shape of the garment to be an issue. For example, smaller men's shirts don't fit the shape. Have anything to say about that?”

Nate
You're right. And again, getting back to it, it's an individual, you know shape. Right? But smaller men's shirt, back to kind of some of the things that we pulled from the survey, you know, just in general, like those men's shirts usually are kind of cut more boxy to accommodate, you know, the traditional male physique, if you will.

Nate
But if you look at the shoulder specifically, you know, we paid special attention to the width of the shoulders, the drop on the shoulders. You know, those change when you look at the garment design, a slightly contoured waist. You don't have to full hourglass it. You know, we're not that's not necessary to accommodate that. Some side slits at the bottom of garments go a long way.

Nate
And kind of the movement and everything like that. So those are some different slight adjustments made to garments that kind of move beyond that, that men's small shirt or best or whatever the the listener was referring to. Little things like that can help.

David
Gotcha.

David
This is a good one. Our PPE, you know, “are the PPE tailored according to work environment?” In other words, when you're looking at women's PPE, you think about the measurements. You know, whether it's, say, the shoulder or whatever in terms and the sleeve length, I imagine sleeve length is a huge one when it's a work being done on a construction job site, versus maybe work being done in an industrial or manufacturing facility, you know, do the measurements change based on the work being done?

Nate
Yes and no. It all depends. I know that's kind of a great, you know, political answer. But, you know, let me take it a step further and say it's not just about moving from one site to the next site, it's about the requirements on that site, or perhaps like the way you work from one site to another for, for example, or are you typically layering up and layering down throughout a day?

Nate
Right. Are you, so if you're working outside versus inside in a controlled environment. Whereas you have to consider, you know, a base layer, mid layer, an outer layer, as you're working outside that you shed up and shed, you know, put back on throughout the day versus going inside and having that one garment. Are you working in an FR, where FR is required?

Nate
Sometimes you have a little bit more limitations in the flexibility of the garments and the fabrics that are used in those situations. So the answer is yes, you should definitely be considering the design of garments and all PPE in those environments, but not just necessarily looking at the face value of are you at construction versus in manufacturing?

Nate
It's more so what are the actual safety requirements within each of those environments, if that makes sense.

David
Gotcha, gotcha. And just a comment from Anna, Iowa OSHA. She says it's so validating to hear the commentary from other women surveyed. She's really enjoying the conversation. And Anna, that makes two of us. Yeah that's, and all I got to say is everybody in the audience make sure to chime in with your questions. Let's I'm going to be selfish and ask a couple of my own questions.

David
And that is Nate looking at how safety leaders need to evaluate PPE to ensure that their gear improves fit across the workforce. If a safety manager wants to improve PPE fit, you know, either on the job site or in the facility, where do they begin? What's the starting point?

Nate
Yeah, their own workforce? Honestly, that's probably the best place to start. I promise your workforce will be thrilled to get involved. So I would start there. You know, some end users that we work with have specific PPE committees that they've drawn up where, you know, whether they meet every so often to discuss PPE enhancements, what's working, what's not working.

Nate
And, you know, getting back to some of the conversation we had earlier, it's about that involvement, David, I think you mentioned it. You know, getting getting that validation from your workforce, they're going to feel involved. They're going to feel listen to and, you know, ultimately more a part of it. So whether it's starting with simple surveys or actually kind of see who would like to be involved in a PPE committee of some sort.

Nate
That's where I suggest you start.

David
That's a great place to start. That's you know. Yeah. Getting it straight from the source. Right? What role you know, talking about that worker feedback is that the primary, you know, tool, I guess, for lack of a better word, that should be used when evaluating and selecting PPE? Is it is it getting the people you know on the team to give some feedback on, you know, sample gear that they might be trying out?

Nate
Yeah, I think so. I guess maybe a good way to sum it up, just combining that question with the previous one is, you know, look for conversations, not catalogs to start. Right? You open up, you know, if you're getting the worker involved, also get your manufacturers rep involved. You're just, you know, distributor sourcing partner involved and see what's working out of their places rather.

Nate
And then of course, we have the ability to go online on our mobile device immediately and start looking things up. But I, I would say don't just rely on opening up a page of a catalog to date myself a little bit and finding something that says women's on it, or finding something like, you know, get them involved.

Nate
Talk to each other and you're going to learn things when you get a group involved, a group effort involved.

David
That makes a ton of sense. Somebody had asked about list of PPE brands. And Christy, you had suggested or you had mentioned the Safety Rack is a great directory for women's PPE. Can't agree more. That is a great website. Go check out the Safety Rack. And then also just to shamelessly plug, you can also go to the product section of the Occupational Health and Safety website at OHSonline.com.

David
And we've got all sorts of different categories in there, including women's PPE and eyewear and other items. Going back to, you know, talking about evaluating PPE, what are some common procurement mistakes Nate that prevent properly fitting PPE, reaching the workforce? You know what are the roadblocks here that reared their ugly heads?

Nate
Yeah, I think we keyed on something, you know, beware of things like universal fit. You know, we mentioned unisex. Right? But there are still a lot of PPE that says universal fit. That rarely is actually true. One-size-fits-all. You know, those terms are, you know, not used as much as they used to be.

Nate
But when it comes to procurement, I guess another thing to be aware of and try to make sure you're connecting the proper dots is, you know, having isolated functions of the organization. And what I mean by that is, you know, many times, many times a group, a safety committee or somebody will work to really dial in the best option for their workforce to keep them safe.

Nate
And then it will get handed off blindly to procurement or someone else. And then sometimes that goes behind the curtain and then they end up with something else. Right? That's maybe a lower cost or, you know, a preferred supplier or something like that. Keep those lines of communication open across the the employer, from safety person to procurement to operations manager, with your distribution partner and all the way up into your manufacturer.

Nate
I mean, I just I like when people talk with each other, it makes things easier to understand. So that would be a landmine to look out for is to just make sure that things aren't blindly handed off in isolation, because that can blow back on everybody.

David
That makes a ton of sense. Before I go into some more audience questions, I want to talk hi-vis for a second. And I'm bringing this up because as an editor, the editorial team and our graphic design department, we regularly, you know, with every story on our website, usually every story in the magazine, we have to find, you know, art to run with these stories.

David
And when you look at hi-vis vests, you know, on stock art options. What do you think we see all the time? Yeah. Just women with shoulders, like out to here, right? Just absolutely wrong size. So. Okay. Go on a journey with me. Okay. I know that hi-vis apparel has to meet requirements, you know, like for reflective striping and that sort of thing under ANSI/ISEA 107.

David
Do those, is the reason that I keep seeing stuff like this. Is it because those requirements create design challenges when creating PPE or is that not the case?

Nate
Yeah, bingo. Right? The you know when hi-vis standards were first brought out there. And it's easy to say really the, the motivation for hi-vis, is to make you as visible as possible on a job site. Right? So to prevent struck by incidents and things like that. So that motivation suggests as much hi-vis as possible.

Nate
Right. In a lot of places. Right? So there are requirements in 107 for the amount of background material, the amount of reflective material, minimum requirements that a garment can have in order to meet that standard, you know, within different classifications. So that is very much the case. So then when you get the situation, and the workers who are more petite, smaller male or female, it becomes challenging to get them in a properly fitted garment while still having that required amount of background material and reflective material.

Nate
So, you know, it's come a long way. It's still always a conversation in the 107 committee meetings. But when you fall back on it, you do need a certain amount of material and there's some science behind it. So that's where that conflicting challenge comes into play.

David
Well, that's some awesome insight right there. And it's and also it's somebody mentioned here affordability. Is that, Judith here says it's very difficult to get affordable hi-vis vests for women and hi-vis pants. I imagine that's another challenge that you guys face as well as a vendor.

Nate
Yep. Yeah absolutely. And to get your, the essential needs of the safety product, you shouldn't need to pay more. There should be that's one thing I think that's important. We look at that, our goal is to come out with a line of product that does not cost any more than the unisex counterparts, right? But a lot of times, what, you know, apparel companies have taken it further down field and design really specific, expensive garments that are good for women.

Nate
And they work. But sometimes they're you try to talk to procurement about getting something like that and it's a nonstarter. So the goal would be to provide something that's the same price.

David
Gotcha. And that answer resonates with another one from Svetlana, and it's in all the places I've worked, asking for women's PPE has always been viewed or at least felt like a special treatment. And, you know, you just didn't ask for it. You had to like, get, you know, special dispensation or whatever. And so she asks, “how do we realistically change this conversation from some sort of entitlement oriented request to this is just bit related and, you know, how do you change the culture here?”

Nate
Yeah, it's getting back to some of what I said. And, you know, I think that is the biggest challenge, but it is kind of creating this group fit committees or PPE committees that were just at the top level. It's okay to have these conversations. You know, it shouldn't be. We're in 2026. It shouldn't be something that's challenging to do.

Nate
And, you know, it is. If you get management that is resistant to that, then it's more of a little bit of a cultural shift, most likely. Right? So I'm sorry that you've had those experiences. I know it's not, you know, the lines of communications up to manufacturers in the cross contractors and that and, you know, we have strong industry advocates.

Nate
You mentioned the Safety Rack. We mentioned a few of strong female industry advocates. They would be a great place to start, you know, reaching out to reaching out to those folks who've had those conversations who have helped consult, you know, contractors and workers like yourselves and doing that. And there's they're not too far away they’re a message and or a phone call away.

Nate
And I think, you know, we can help shift that culture at your organization.

David
Yeah, yeah. And Anna from Iowa, OSHA, as you know, from an OSHA perspective, we also always recommend involving workers in PPE selection. It's part of a strong safety culture for workers to know their employee cares about their safety and comment. That's a that's a great point there. And I would just add that, you know, it's like with a lot of safety equipment, like if you just neutralize the conversation, right?

David
Take women's PPE and say it's something else, you know, like rooftop fall protection or whatever. Right? Barriers. Right? You know, it's increased exposure means increased cost. So we have a tool, whatever that is, PPE or whatever to mitigate that cost. I think most owners, once they realize that they're going to mitigate cost and risk exposure, you know, they'll clue in eventually.

Nate
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You're right. Right.

David
Maybe I'm too maybe on the little too Pollyanna, I don't know. So but anyway, and here's another great question before I dive into another topic. And it's it's very specific, but I thought it was a clever one. And it's this and it goes back to the ponytail question. It's this another question I have is I because I get this asked a lot is, is gloves to accommodate fingernails.

David
Right. Women tend to wear their longer fingernails than men, whether it's natural or artificial. What do you do when you've got like maybe nitrile gloves or something like that and you're trying to provide PPE, but you're also trying to accommodate the wearer. What do you do in those situations?

Nate
Yeah, it's a challenge. And I don't know if I have a perfect answer for that specific situation. However, it kind of falls back to this theme that we're talking about is, you know, trying out some different ones. You know what gloves is one that doesn't have to be too much of a, you know, budgetary constraint, commitment to, to do trials on.

Nate
There's also gloves that perform a little differently whether they're insulated, non insulated, waterproof, etc.. So you should be able to dial one in that works to an extent. And depending on of course on how long those fingernails can get I have I have two daughters so I understand. But yeah it's something that I think just through trial and error, you could find something that could work for you within a size range of a glove that's already specked in, whether it's in a vending machine or what have you.

Nate
It's just about trying that out and having a safety culture and management that's willing to do so.

David
That's great. That's great. Okay. Well, let's go a little bit more. And let's we talked about safety culture. Let's talk more about it. Besides physical safety risks. And this went to a question earlier in a comment. But you know I'd love to hear you expound a little bit more on it. You know, how does poorly fitting PPE affect morale and thusly safety engagement?

Nate
Yeah, I think I can't remember who it was, but somebody mentioned it earlier. It really kind of makes you feel crappy, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of the social and emotional effects, you know. Do you, do you stand out because it just looks looks off and then you, you know, you have those feelings to in general, it just makes you feel not valued as a worker.

Nate
If you just issued something and saying, make it work, right? You know, if the gear fits funny, you might have some fingers pointed at you. And what does that do to you? Psychologically, you know, and then all that being said, I think it comes down to it, probably a physical change in the work performance. So if there's a, you know, as a safety manager, as a manager in general, do those folks, they're constantly thinking about how the PPE is ill fitting and what others think of them, they're not carrying through with, you know, productivity.

Nate
So it can happen. And I think there's been, you know, some studies done and some papers released on how that can happen.

David
Oh, there you go. That's that's perfect right there. Here's a related one. What message does it send to workers when the gear they've been given clearly doesn't fit properly.

Nate
Yeah. They don't care. Right? You know, it's when they're given something that definitely doesn't fit. It wasn't well thought out. They're looking for something that's more affordable and easy to implement. You know that in general a safety is not as important as, you know it should be. It's not number one on the list. So it sends a or, you know, a message that your organization doesn't take safety as serious as it should.

Nate
And thankfully, I think a lot more folks out there are changing that mindset and driving it forward in a positive way.

David
Yeah. And to talk about what that mindset really means, you know, again, because I'm trying to think about in terms of tangible benefit. Right? Let me ask you this one. How can improving PPE fit in a range of PPE help an organization attract a broader and better workforce?

Nate
Yeah, I mean, you see, you can tell clearly that when a contractor takes safety as one of their highest priorities, if not the highest, which it should be. Right? And you just notice, I'm sure the statistics that they have probably support it, that it just drives a more diverse workforce. People want to come there and then, you know, retention too, right?

Nate
I mean, retaining that workforce. If you come in to an organization and you're, you're issued just the same universal size products as everybody else. They don't fit. It tells you, that doesn't take you seriously. Probably eventually you may look somewhere else. Right? And likely their safety statistics are not as good as those who take it more serious, that have it built into their culture.

Nate
So then those who have it built into their culture, they're going to have better retention of employees. And therefore, I think, you know, less expense in onboarding and training new individuals and, you know, driving that experience. So it makes a huge difference.

David
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Dive into some more audience questions. Just a real quick reminder to everybody. If you haven't chimed in and asked the question, don't be shy. Use the ask a question console and that will go right into our inbox noticing some same people asking questions. So I want all the wallflowers to dive in and ask them questions there.

David
Let's dive. Let's let's go back into it. This is a really good one. And it's this “how do I encourage workers to speak up about PPE fit? How do I make sure that they know there's an open culture?”

Nate
Yeah, I do think in this day and age it's way easier than it used to be, right? It can go well beyond the old suggestion box of dropping a note in at the end of your shift and we'll, you know, we'll get to it at the end of the week type of a thing. There's, there's platforms that are out there through mobile devices, software, apps, things like that where you can give feedback, take photos of things you know, and kind of spin that positively with safety.

Nate
And then I do encourage, I mentioned it a couple of times, to have some type of a committee that's made up of your employees that speak to one another and share ideas. It's one thing with the old suggestion box mentality to drop something in and have a manager read it and then consider it and move from there.

Nate
It's another thing to have a group of collaborative folks who are talking with one another about best practice, who may have tried something at a former company, and they can bring that experience to the table. So, we found at Ergodyne when we do our voice customer events and talk to it, talk to others that you know it.

Nate
When you get collaboration going, these ideas just start spinning off each other and you find better ways to do things.

David
Yeah, right. The safety culture is a conversation, ultimately. What's the and this is related. Do you have any kind of other tips on how to foster that dialog? You know, to encourage feedback on PPE fit and and also get people to share those tips that they may have gotten from a, you know, working in another capacity, that sort of thing when it comes to PPE fit.

Nate
Yeah. The message, essentially the message of, and this is coming from a PPE manufacturer, not a contractor per se, but just the message that it's acceptable and that we will take time to stand down and do this. You know, we've got a couple, in just over a month we've got construction safety week, safety stand down week coming up.

Nate
That effort is just so impactful where you know, everybody just across the industry is like just encouraged to just take a moment and talk about safety. You know, it's not not something that's looked down upon or that is, you know, an excuse for not being productive. You know, more more of that. It doesn't have to be this universal, nationwide stand down commitment, but it could be just a company wide commitment that once a month or whatever, we're just going to have to take time to talk about it.

Nate
And, you know, even if there's awkward silence, just let it sit. Let it come out right. It's not something that you that needs an answer like that. It's something that happens over time. And that's again, that's with any PPE related thing, not just fit, you know, the fit conversation that we've been talking about.

David
Yeah. Yeah that's a that's a great point. I this next question I love because it speaks to the fact that a lot of people are DIY and assist. What do you do when an employee modifies their PPE because it doesn't fit right? Right? So they they modify it. Maybe they've got some sewing skills or whatever. You know, I, I personally have highly refined duct tape skills.

David
But the point is, you know, so maybe you have somebody who's got a boxier vest and so they're, you know, they modify the shoulders. And the flip side is it's like, well, wait, no, you know, the shoulder length might need to be a little boxier to ensure visibility. What do you do? How do you address that?

Nate
Yeah. Yeah it depends on the PPE for sure. There are certain types of PPE where unfortunately there has to be kind of a no tolerance policy. You do, you got to you got to swap that out. You know, something where the integrity of the product is, is damaged, whether it be like fall protection, head protection, you know, etc..

Nate
And with other things, you know, like hi-vis and things like that. It's like that is getting back to earlier. It's a telltale sign that there's something not working here. So that can spark that conversation. I'm trying to get them to, you know, why did why did you do that? What's not fitting? Can we try a different size?

Nate
Is there an alternative manufacturer that we can look at? So it depends on the severity that can happen. If that altered PPE is, you know, the way it's altered. But that's how that conversation I think could start.

David
Got it, got it. Okay guys. Homestretch. So we got about 7 or 8 minutes here. Let's see what we could do with them. Nate as let's talk a little let's be a little forward looking here and talk about the future of PPE fit as workplace demographics continue to broaden. What do you see PPE evolving towards? You know, does this get more bespoke?

David
You know how do you you know where does where does this go?

Nate
Yeah. Well I wish here at Ergodyne and we had a beautiful crystal ball that we could look into. We do our best, but it really.

David
Is a question right out.

Nate
Right. Well, what's the future look like on 2026? Lord knows. No, when it comes to PPE, I mean, we lean a lot into the innovations in fabrics, technologies, resins, things like that. The materials drive a lot of it. You know, both from, you know, flexibility, moldability, protection level standpoint, but also from an affordability standpoint for navigating some interesting times when it comes to affordability with a lot of different materials.

Nate
But there are innovations happening. And you could see that, I mean, every safety trade show you go to, if the manufacturer doesn't have something they've innovated and come out with an in the last six months or something, then they're probably doing something wrong. Because there is a lot of new stuff available. So really when it comes to the material standpoint, whether that's lighter weight things, things that are more breathable or cooler, you know, that comes a long way.

Nate
And then also, I think outlined here in our whole conversation is just this openness between end user and manufacturer, which drives a lot of the improvements of what we're doing. How can we make a better glove? How can we, you know, kind of shift a head protection standard in a way that's better for the end user?

Nate
You know, those types of things. We're in a collaborative day and age here now, and it really is, it's really exciting when it comes to being a manufacturer in this industry.

David
I bet, I bet. Are there certain things that safety leaders should be watching for over the next few years when it comes to PPE innovations, or maybe even standards?

Nate
Yeah, from well both I guess. From a safety innovation standpoint, I mean you have, you have your traditional PPE, right? You look at hard hat, eyewear, gloves, vests, etc. but we're always challenged with how how can we move things further up on the safety hierarchy. Right? Is there you mentioned in the very start of our call, David, PPE is the last line of defense, you know, so are there ways that we can prevent the incidents from happening altogether?

Nate
Rather then, protecting them. So I think from a personal protective equipment standpoint that's worn by the worker, you're going to look for new innovations and materials across the board. Literally head to toe. But then also look out for, you know, things that provide a better way to do things. You know, for example, whether you have a hard hat that actually protects you if something falls and hits you in the head.

Nate
But what about a tool tether that prevents that thing from falling in the first place? You know, we're trying to think that way. So that's the way to look at it. From a standard standpoint, I think you're going to find standards that are heavily, that are driven by both manufacturers with end user input. That’s incredibly important.

Nate
So we don't over engineer things that actually make things, you know, a hindrance to work with. Like those are two themes, I think, to answer both parts of your question.

David
Yeah. No that's great. Are there any lessons that are being learned when it comes to improving PPE for women that could help improve protection, you know, more broadly across the workforce?

Nate
Yeah, it's a good way to start to kind of wrap up our convo, I guess is just again, not to assume that, you know, one-size-fits-all and that something that's made for women or any assumptions that are out there for women work without actually listening to the female workforce that are using it. So it it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to move from a box shaped garment all the way to an hourglass shaped garment.

Nate
We found that it actually, we can take that unisex garment and make a handful of tweaks to it that keep it the same cost as your unisex garment, but make it overall better for a variety of different body types for women. It's not assuming that the female PPE is just one-size-fits-all either.

David
That makes sense. That makes sense. And this is a comment that I thought was a salient point, and I want to add it to the conversation and maybe we'll sign off. But Marissa points out, she says, you know, everybody's got a duty to find a solution and bring attention to women's PPE. As you said, manufacturers need to ask questions.

David
Distributors need to promote women's products. Obviously, employers need to, you know, raise the voices of women so that, you know, everybody's aware of, you know, their opinions and needs and desires when it comes to PPE. I thought that was that was a great point to kind of add to this conversation that this is a collective thing so.

Nate
Absolutely.

David
Well, Nate, I hate to say it, we're now inside our final two minutes. So times pretty much up for our webinar. Everybody remember in the next day or two, we're going to be emailing you a link to an archive version of the webinar so that you can view it or share it with a coworker who might have missed it.

David
We're going to sign off. But before we do that, I want to give a few notes a thanks. First off, I want to thank today's expert, Nate Bohmbach, Senior Director of Product and Management for Ergodyne. Nate, thank you for taking the time for answering a metric ton of questions here. Really appreciate it.

Nate
Yeah you're right David. We could go another hour. But I, I really appreciate you having me on. And for you know let me speak to this and on behalf of Ergodyne and our entire team, you know, we thank you and look forward to continuing this message.

David
That's great. Well, thanks a lot. Really appreciate you sharing your insight as somebody who's kind of at the heart of product design, so appreciate it. And likewise, thanks to Ergodyne for sponsoring today's event. They're the ones who made this presentation possible. So please make a point to go check them out online. And last but not least, I want to give a thanks to everybody out in the audience who participated with us today.

David
You're the reason we do this. So thanks very much for the interest and the involvement and all the terrific questions. Okay. With that, we're going to sign off. I hope everybody has a great rest of the week. For now, goodbye until the next Occupational Health and Safety webinar.

Nate
Thanks everyone.